Rambling of Questions of Power & Functionality

[TBULL]

By now I'm sure many of you know my feelings about preferred power plants. I thought I had all of this wrapped up in my head, but it was all theoretical. I had plans for a Chevy 350 Cobra. After much discussion though, I was starting to think about the 351. Now that Shelley has said to go and get it, I just don't know. Ultimately I would like a 350 / 351 with 8 weber carbs, Velocity stacks and throttle bodied fuel injection. Shelley would prefer if I bought a cobra turn key. She knows how busy I am. I tend to over extend myself with time. Go figure. Mea Culpa. (look it up Tim) :) Just Kidding. I would prefer to find one then with a portion of it done, without paint (or at a price I could re-paint) and finish it with the mods I think I'm going to have to do in order to fit comfortably. The key phrase guys in "Comfortably". Yes Mike, I can't take the pain of cramming my frame in with a shoe horn. :D

All of this has led to the question of how much is enough? There are a ton of cars out there with the 302 both carburated and injected. I realize we don't build these cars with MPH in mind, but I plan on driving mine alot so the injected gets better gas milage. Practically a daily driver Mid March through October. Of the guys that have 302's, do you think you have enough HP? For these cars what is enough? I was thinking about a 350/351 with around 400-450, but there are issues with that as well. More power begets more wear and therefore more work. I wait with eager anticipation your thoughts.:p All I know for sure right now is that I have a huge grin knowing my car is out there in some form and I'm going to be bring it home soon. One way or another. :D Let the thoughts and discussion flow forth.

[carpe kid]

Personally for me, I don't have enough. I have a stock 302, injected. For two years I have been planning on tearing into it. I have had it on a dyno and I am at 252 rwhp. I guess you can tell I don't need to over compensate with a big block:D:D.

What I lack in power I make up for in the ability to drive. I have NEVER had to do anything other than oil changes & I get 22-24 mpg. I can spin it through 1st & 2nd.

Honestly, in my opinion for an everyday driver I only am going to add about 100 horse more. I am going to change the cam, heads and add a mass flo intake with bigger injectors this winter. Should get me 75 to 100 horse from where I am (I am told).

[Matthew 10:16]

feel unqualified to give advice next to the other guys in this club.

[Purple Venom]

So far, I think Scott and Stan have the best ideas with the modular motors with injection. Scott says his will be over 300hp and still get 22-24mpg. Me and Mark have big blocks which are good for low end torque, horsepower - how much do ya want? and that awesome sound. Your options? As CK said, he can get over 300hp to the rear wheels with a few mods. I, already have that and with another $1800 mod, (SCJ heads) I can add another 100 hp. So, with that in mind, to get more HP out of a Small Block, you need to make a few more modifications to do so. I'll bet with as many elbows in this club, that's how many opinions you will get.

1) Is it going to be a daily driver? If so, talk to Skip - he drives his alot back and forth to work.
2) You want HP for what? Racing? Keeping up with Mark and I?:D More Hp usually means less gas mileage.
3) How much is enough? How brave are you? If you don't intend to race like CK does at RNG, if you only intend to have a mean sounding car, they all sound good, if you want a seat of your pants ride, ride in any of the cars - small or big block - and you will have the time of your life.
HTH :D Mea Culpa, that's an easy one - Means I'm tired in Spanish :D

[STL Mark]

Usually this discussion eventually ends up at - MONEY.

Chevy LS1/LS7 engines are strong, reliable, and cheap - nothing wrong with them at all. You could even get a 6 speed. They'll never "look" or "sound" like a cobra engine - but will smoke most of them. BTW - I'm sure the same could be said for the Ford modular engines.

The SBF engines do "look" like a cobra engine - kinda. You can get weber set-ups, or injection that looks like weber stacks. You'll make plenty of HP (500+). The builds can be as exotic or as plain as your budget will allow.

The BBF engines "look & sound" like a cobra engine. The prices here are about the same as SBF engines (unless you go with an FE motor). The mileage sucks - but so what.

Everyone will talk about handling, etc. But, at the top end it won't matter - because these cars (no matter what engine) have horrible aerodynamic properties. At about 125mph - you'll think your going to die.

I've been told that if you want to have an engine with webers, or weber stack style injection - that the engine should be purpose built for that - not just bolt on a new intake system.

ALSO - we are a pretty close club - and your seat of the pants questions can be answered by taking a ride with a few of us. Tom has an awesome 302 supercharged car, there are many strong SBF cars, Tim has a 460, I have a 588, and Paul just finished his FE engine.

Check out Roush engines too. I'd go with something from them - 2 year warranty.

http://www.roushperformance.com/

But - in the end it will be about money - and you'll spend every penny.

Mark

[STL-Scott]

Whoa...there is a loaded question! How much power is enough?

If you want an engine that runs good with little to no work, get good fuel economy and adjusts automatically, I would have to agree with CK. and Tim. The late model Mustang engines were mass produced and had a lot of high powered Ford engineering built into them. The 5.0 is easier to work on than the modular motors, mainly because it is still a small block windsor casting with push rod valves. I've read that a swap to the GT40 heads, massaged intake and bigger injectors and you can get out over 300 hp from a 5.0 EFI engine.

My Lincoln Mark VIII DOHC 4.6 was rated at 290 hp stock with factory emmisions and exhaust. By going to the straight headers and less restrive sidepipes, and a retune of the computer, I should get over 300-310 hp on a completely stock engine. Stan has a wicked cool stacked injection set-up on his Mach 1 motor from Wayne Presley (Very Cool Parts) that completely replicates the webers look.

Only problem with the SOHC/DOHC powerplants is the restrictive footboxes.

So, big blocks are probably more fun and more cost. I'm going to stick my neck out and say small blocks are going to be better autox cars and everyday drivers. And the late model EFI donor motors are going to give you the modern drivetrain (less problems) in a vintage car. Turn the key and drive.

BTW - it is possible to put a supercharger on all of the smallblocks (modulars included), and really wake up the engine. There are some crazy builds out there and the blown and injected engines really sound sweet! Gary and Tom both have these combos.
And lastly, it's possible to supercharge a DOHC. Ford/SVT did it and still does (with the GT500 shelby). These put out anywhere from 390 hp up to 1000!

You must me stoked and confused...

[Purple Venom]

See this thread over at FFC - http://www.ffcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191647

I guess I find it funny why so many people are worried about HP AND MPG at the same time. Look, if you buy this car, it is NOT to replace your daily driver which is why I am totally biased against computer controlled, high output engines with "computer" power. My opinion is too much is when you can't control it. How good a driver are you? How confident are you that when the wheels break loose at 70mph you can recover and does the thought of this scare you? Too much power is when your wife is in the car with you and you get the "stare" http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/Hawgwild06/Smilies/wife.gif yeah, that one. Then there's the age old question of how to transfer all this power to the pavement. Unless you have slicks, you can't do it. I'll bet if you drove an original 289 with 260hp, you would have just as much fun as I do.:D

[TBULL]

Mea Culpa, that's an easy one - Means I'm tired in Spanish :D
That's funny. I was thinking Italian as in "My Fault" or "I'm Guilty". I was loking around and found this in "Hot"lanta.

http://www.clubcobra.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=1409&cat=2

I think I'd like to steer clear of the Mod engines, primarily because of the foot box and clearance. I really want to build this beast, but my sometimes wiser counterpart is really pushing for the turn key. I've found a couple of ones out there that have injected 302's that are very reasonable(23-28k). At some of those prices, I could afford to eaven take the body off and put the mods I want in and repaint it. I really like the thought of the Weber style
throttle body injection.

BBF -thought about it and discarded. For me, as an almost daily driver, the SB would be better and I can push into the 400 hp ranges with the SB. More horsepower than the original 427.

May eat my own words and end up with on of these 5.0 engines. I know I'll be somewhere between 302 and 402. Well you know. ;) I just know it will be great enjoying it with you guys. Thanks for the input. I plan on being at the meeting next Tuesday and my daughter Ashley is looking forward to seeing these cars and meeting some of you. She's the one who wants to build it with me. Her desire for speed is taking us to six flags Wednesday for every roller coaster they have. Don't know where she gets it from. :D I may ask for a couple of quick or rather short rides. See ya then.

I'll be interested stan in hearing how your setup is working for you.

[STL-Scott]

Popcorn, get your pocorn here!

Seriuosly, if you want a chebbly power plant, just do it. You will be the only guy in the atea with it.

LS1, EFI, straight headers, and it will sound like a small block ford.

[STL-Scott]

That's funny. I was thinking Italian as in "My Fault" or "I'm Guilty".

I believe it actually has it roots in Latin, which spanish, italian and french all come from.

Our local attny. could tell you the literal translation...

[Purple Venom]

HYG Scott - http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/Hawgwild06/Smilies/popcorn.gif

[TBULL]

Good point Scott and I just got an email from Atlanta and the car is still for sale. Shelley and the Kids like it. I'll keep you guys posted.

[Matthew 10:16]

Da Bull ROCKS! :D

[STL-Scott]

Oh I smell a new cobra coming to town....

You can transport these on a car hauler...or Stewart is a great company, you won't go wrong!

Can you share the link of which one this was (Atlanta)....

Good Luck,
Scotty

[Matthew 10:16]

Hey Little Cobra? Shut em down........ Shut em down........ BTW H/W posted the link from FFC in another thread a couple of days ago for the Burgandy w/silver stripes for 29,000 OBO!!!!!!!!!!! Schaweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Da Bull ROCKS!!!!!!!!!

[PaulProe]

Bull,
We also own a Miata. It is essentially the same size as a Cobra, has a four cylinder, 140HP. You can get in trouble with that. and you're considering something that has 3-4 times as much horsepower.

There was a story on Club Cobra about a guy insistent on buying a big block Cobra in the 60's Salesman told him he only had a 289 but could get him one. Come on,let's take a ride. Took him out and scared the bejesus out of him. When they got back to the dealership, they guy said, "after that experience, I think you're right, the 289 would be a better choice - the Big Block would be too much" The salesman just smiled and said "that was a 289"

Regarding your Chevy engine. I would really re-think that decision. When they evaluate a car, one's with Chevrolet motors are considered to be "less engine" since the new owner will probably change the motor to be a Ford powerplant. It will seriously affect your resale value. I have driven GM most of my life and understand your affinity to the BowTie. But it would be like buying a new Z06 Corvette and putting a Modular Motor in it.

Not down-playing Chevrolet or GM, just pointing out how the car would be received by the next buyer.


My 2c

Paul

[TBULL]

I know I would have liked the bowtie, but for multiple reasons I'll be going Ford. :( But I mean really, you guys have got me thinking about the thing so much that I'm considering a 302 with the velocity stacks and a FAST XFi fuel management system. It would still be well over the 300 HP or just an easy 351 with the same setup. Scott i put the link in the earlier thread. Take a look and tell me what you think. Here's the link again. Later.

http://www.clubcobra.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=1409&cat=2

[STL-Scott]

Looks like a sweet ride Dan! Can't beat the price. I would have him address the Bilsteins if you buy it before ownership is transferred.
F5 is working with Bilsteins right now to do a swap out replacement on these units, but it probably requires removing the ones installed, sending them in and waiting for them to be replaced or reworked. I have been following the news but not so much the last few days.

[TBULL]

Scotty,
Good point on the Bilsteins. It won't even cost him anything. Even if he gets them and then I return the Bilsteins, that would work. I was kind of worried about that and I asked him that in my e-mail i sent this morning at 5 am. :) Too much power? I could put a block of wood under the go pedal I guess. ;) It "sounds" like a good deal. Not exactly what i wanted, but veeerrryyy close.

General question. If I need to do mods on the driver area, how easy is it to remove the painted body. I understand I'd have to be very careful, but can it be done reasonably safely without damaging the paint. If so, then I might have a sale. thanks guys.

[carpe kid]

Beautiful ride above. I agree with the power comments. My response was not focused on mpg, but more that fact that if I ever have an issue I probably can't fix it. I like that mine is a driver. Ride in any of these. You could put a 4 cylinder in a 2000 lbs car and fly. Your call.

[TOM KEISER]

Dan,

Removing the body is a 2 man weekend project to do it very carefully. Remove the winshield, doors, hood, trunk lid, roll bar(s), front & rear splash panels, side bolts, front bolts, rear bolts, 2 hidden bolts from the trunk latches and unhook the light wiring. I drove my car unpainted for a year before my Son and I removed it for paint. We did it in a day but didn't have to worry about scratching it, that's why I'm allowing 2 days for yours. We would be happy to help when the time comes. Andy is absolutely necessary for the drivers side windshield bolts :D, I can't bend like that any more.

Tom

[Matthew 10:16]

unless I'm 2 many hands just gettn in the way.

[STL Mark]

...that dash layout is a bit different. I don't know what that bar is going across (in the picture).
It's low miles though - isn't it? Looks like a pretty clean build.

[Matthew 10:16]

Looks like he dressed up the dash & the area around the shifter with chrome or stainless strips for accent. Very tastefully done! Love it. Da Bull ROCKS!

[TBULL]

I like the car alot. Still haven't heard from him today on the questions I sent. We'll just have to wait and see. As far as too many hands, the spares can have a beer and pizza in them. :) First things first. I have to get everything approved and work a deal. Worst case is, I've found about thee other ones to look at next. All with a little less engine in them, but in my option more things I'd want to change. We'll just have to see. Either way they hunt is on!

[Matthew 10:16]

all those in favor say "Aye." Man Oh Man Bull how do U sleep? Ya gotta b goin nuts. This is way too cool. Hang in there buddy. It'll happen & when it does we will celebrate!